My Interpretation of Blessed Emmerich’s Two Popes Prophecy

I (Ronald L. Conte Jr.) have studied and written Roman Catholic eschatology for 20 years. Based on my study of Sacred Scripture and the Saints and some true private revelations, I can understand most of what Blessed Anne is saying about this future time. Her comments refer to the two parts of the tribulation. The first part of the tribulation is for this current generation, beginning soon. Then there is a long inter-tribulation period, lasting a few hundred years. Finally, the second part of the tribulation unfolds with the reign of the Antichrist, followed by the Return of Jesus Christ.

March 22, 1820

“I saw very clearly the errors the aberrations an the countless sins of men. I saw the folly and the wickedness of their actions, against all truth and all reason. Priests were among them, and I gladly endured my suffering so that they may return to a better mind.”

~ Sinful secular society becomes worse and worse. This is the first indication that each part of the tribulation is nearing. Then the members of the Church, influenced by society, also fall into similar sins. At the same time, sinful theology rises up to explain away and justify those popular sins. We see this happening currently, as we approach the first part of the tribulation. It will be much worse in the time leading up to the second part of the tribulation. This false theology, often put forward by priests as well as lay theologians, justifies grave sins and weakens dogmas of the faith.

April 12, 1820

“I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps…”

~ The tribulation has two parts; in each part, there is a great apostasy. It begins, each time with heresies and schism. Once the people no longer accept the teaching authority of the successive Popes, whether the present Pope or a previous one, they easily fall into one heresy after another. Then, having lost faith in the true leader of the Faith and in his teachings, they fall away from Christianity altogether.

~ So this vision applies to both parts of the tribulation. I do not know what the concession is. It is not something permissible but unwise. It is not permitting more married men to become priests, nor permitting the ordination of women deacons. Those things are permissible to the Church.

May 13, 1820

“I saw also the relationship between the two popes…. I saw how baleful (harmful) would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city (of Rome). The local clergy grew lukewarm, and I saw a great darkness…”

~ It is a dogma of the Faith that the Church is indefectible. She can never go astray from the true faith, nor lead anyone astray. Therefore, the Pope, as the head of the Church, can never teach material heresy, nor lead the people astray in any other way, nor can he commit apostasy, heresy, or schism. Thus, the two Popes prophecy is one valid Pope, and one invalid Pope. Even so, holy God does not permit any invalid Pope (or antipope) to be accepted by the body of Bishops. For they too are indefectible, though only as a body, not as individuals.

~ The two Popes are not Francis and Benedict. Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation was valid, and Pope Francis is his valid successor. Pope Francis will teach controversial true doctrines, which are contrary to the mistaken understanding of conservatives. Then many conservatives will falsely accuse him of heresy and depart from the one true Church. When Pope Francis resigns, the subsequent valid Pope will be very conservative. I think it will be Cardinal Arinze as Pope Pius 13th. When he requires that all the faithful believe and practice the Catholic faith, and avoid all objective mortal sin, in order to receive Communion, many liberal Catholics depart from the true Church.

~ After the martyrdom of Pope Pius 13th during World War 3, Rome will be captured. So the election for the next valid Pope must be held outside Rome and Vatican City. A true Pope is elected, and not by Cardinals alone, but by Bishops and Cardinals. Thus, the heretics and schismatics will cease this opportunity to elect a false Pope (an antipope). They will have enough Bishops and a few Cardinals in order to make it seem like a true election. The two Popes, then, are the valid Pope (the second one after Francis) and an invalid Pope (antipope).

~ The antipope will be the most prominent antipope in the history of the Church. He will have the support of the liberals who departed under Pope Pius 13th. He will probably take the name Pope Peter II, in order to take advantage of the Peter the Roman prophecy, and also as a way to support his claim to be a valid Pope.

“Then the vision seemed to extend on every side. Whole Catholic communities were being oppressed, harassed, confined, and deprived of their freedom. I saw many churches closed down, great miseries everywhere, wars and bloodshed. A wild and ignorant mob took violent action. But it did not last long…”

~ World War 3 is the war of the Arab Muslim nations of the Middle East and northern Africa against the U.S. and Europe. The Muslim extremists will win the war, conquer Europe, and oppress all non-Muslims, especially Christians. Churches will be closed. Priests and religious will be hunted and imprisoned.

“Once more I saw that the Church of Peter was undermined by a plan evolved by the secret sect [Freemasons], while storms were damaging it. But I saw also that help was coming when distress had reached its peak. I saw again the Blessed Virgin ascend on the Church and spread her mantle [over it].”

~ Freemasons, historically, was a group of actual stone masons, who formed a guild (a union). Then that guild obtained much power in society. It developed into a false religion, which opposed the one true Church. However, in the current situation, literal freemason have no real power. It is one sign of a false private revelation that freemason are spoken of as if they were a literal group which would cause substantial harm to the Church.

~ In true private revelation, freemasons are only spoken of by way of a figure of speech. A literal mason chips away at stones, or replaces them in their entirety. A figurative mason or freemason chips away at, or replaces, the figurative stones of the Church, Her teachings. Today, we have liberal freemasons, Catholics who wish to do away with whole teachings of the Faith, and conservative freemason, who wish to reshape, that is, radically reinterpret, the teachings of the Faith. Both are very dangerous to souls. These are the freemason of which Blessed Anne speaks, and of which the Blessed Virgin Mary speaks in a few true private revelations.

~ The storms damaging the Church are the attacks on the Church from without, that is, from sinful secular society. The plan of the secret sect is the conservative heretics who conspire together to spread a radical reinterpretation of magisterial teaching. This is already happening today, though it will become much worse. I have already written against these errors, by which conservative teachers propose grave errors on faith, morals, and salvation, and falsely claim that it is doctrine or sound theological opinion. Most Catholics do not care. I point out these grave errors, being promoted by their favorite conservative leaders, and they do not see the problem. They adhere to Catholicism as if it were a workers’ union or guild (like the freemasons’ guild). They follow their conservative leaders, even if they contemn the Roman Pontiff, approve of grave sins, and make radical changes to doctrine.

July, 1820

“I saw the Holy Father surrounded by traitors and in great distress about the Church. He had visions and apparitions in his hour of greatest need. I saw many good pious Bishops; but they were weak and wavering, their cowardice often got the upper hand…Then I saw darkness spreading around and people no longer seeking the true Church.”

~ This happens in both parts of the tribulation. First, many fall away from the true Faith. Some fall away because they are unwilling to give up their grave sins. Others fall away because they believe the errors of false teachers, on the right or on the left. Eventually, many persons fall away, and the true Church becomes much smaller.

~ Already Pope Francis is surrounded by traitors, the papal critics, the critics of Amoris Laetitia and of whatever documents he issues next. It is ironic that some of these traitors are using the warning of Blessed Anne to undermine the true Pope, Francis. The Church will suffer much during both parts of the tribulation, so these words of Blessed Anne apply to multiple true Popes, including Francis and his several valid successors.

August to October, 1820

“I see more martyrs, not now but in the future…I saw the secret sect relentlessly undermining the great Church. Near them I saw a horrible beast coming up from the sea… All over the world, good and devout people especially the clergy were harassed oppressed and put into prison. I had the feeling that they would become martyrs one day.”

~ This occurs in both parts of the tribulation. I cannot write all of the events that I know in this one article. See my books: The First Part of the Tribulation and The Second Part of the Tribulation (list of books).

~ In the first part of the tribulation, the beast from the sea is the nations led or conquered by the Muslim extremists during World War 3. They close Churches, kill devout believers, especially priests, and oppress the faithful. Their kingdom spans many nations and a vast territory; it is like a beast.

~ At the same time, the Church is attacked from within, by false teachers on the right and the left, who constantly strive to reinterpret or dismiss Her teachings, so as to please their listeners, justify grave sin, and explain away whichever teachings are most difficult to accept. (cf. John 6).

“When the Church had been for the most part destroyed [from without and from within], and when only the sanctuary and altar were still standing, I saw the wreckers enter the Church with the Beast. There they met a Woman of noble carriage who seemed to be with child because she walked slowly. At this sight, the enemies were terrorized, and the Beast could not take but another step forward. It projected its neck towards the Woman as if to devour her, but the Woman turned about and bowed down, her head touching the ground. Thereupon, I saw the Beast taking to flight towards the sea again, and the enemies were fleeing in the greatest confusion…. Then, I saw in the great distance great legion approaching. In the foreground I saw a man on a white horse. Prisoners were set free and joined them. All enemies were pursued. Then, I saw that the Church was being promptly rebuilt, and she was more magnificent than ever before….”

~ The above description is figurative. It applies to both parts of the tribulation. For the first part, the Church is harmed by the conservative schism and by conservative false teachers, then also by liberal false teachers and the liberals who attempt to set up a false Church. The Church is also harmed by the progression in sinful secular society of false doctrines on sexuality, gender, marriage, etc. Then World War 3 does much harm to the Church in Europe, forcing the Holy See out of Rome.

~ About that time, the false teachers think to finally take control over the teachings of the Magisterium, confirming all of their grave errors. Their errors support the grave sins of secular society (e.g. approving of grave sexual sins in marriage, approving of contraception and abortifacients in many cases) while pretending to oppose the sins of secular society. Thus, they are said to enter the Church with the Beast. But of course, they fail. The Church is indefectible.

~ The woman is of course the Blessed Virgin Mary. Devotion to her and faithfulness to the Roman Pontiff are the two points of anchor that secure the Church, the Ark of Salvation, against all enemies within and without. She seems to be with child because the Church on earth figuratively gives birth to our Savior, by birthing the true Gospel. The enemies within the Church fail, largely due to a great Ecumenical Council which occurs during the first part of the tribulation. The sinfulness of secular society then withdraws, meaning that they stop trying to change the teachings of the Church to match those of society.

~ The man on the white horse is the great Catholic monarch, who is Archduke Ferdinand Zvonimir of Austria. The Angelic Shepherd is Fr. Zlatko Sudac. The monarch frees Europe by means of World War 4, and then he and the Angelic Shepherd rebuild society and the Church after the first part of the tribulation.

~ How this applies to the second part of the tribulation can be easily understood from my book on the topic.

August 10, 1820

“I see the Holy Father in great anguish. He lives in a palace other than before and he admits only a limited number of friends near him. I fear that the Holy Father will suffer many more trials before he dies. I see that the false Church of darkness is making progress and I see the dreadful influence it has on the people. The Holy Father and the Church are verily in so great a distress that one must implore God night and day…”

~ During World War 3, the Muslim extremists capture Rome and destroy Vatican City, so the Holy See moves first to Washington, D.C. and later to a location in or near St. Louis, Missouri. The Pope in question is not Benedict or Francis, but subsequent Roman Pontiffs.

~ During the second part of the tribulation, in the distant future, the last Pope before the Return of Jesus Christ is killed by the supporters of the Antichrist, just before the Antichrist rises to power over the world. Then no Roman Pontiff is elected during the nearly seven year reign of the Antichrist. So, any prophecy speaking of a Pope during the tribulation does not refer to that time period.

“I have been told to pray much for the Church and the Pope…The people must pray earnestly for the extirpation (rooting out) of the dark church.”

~ There are two false Churches in the end times. During the first part of the tribulation, the false Church is set up by liberal Catholics, the one who departed from the true Church under the successor to Francis. During the second part of the tribulation, the Antichrist sets up a false Church, so that he might be worshipped. This false Church is devised and led by the false prophet, a woman. She is a former Catholic who worships the Antichrist and who devises a formal system of religion for the Antichrist patterned as a perverse distortion of Catholicism. She is a type of pope over his false Church. But the true Church exists at the same time, without a Pope.

“Last night I was taken to Rome where the Holy Father, immersed in his sorrow, is still hiding to elude dangerous demands [made upon him]. He is still very weak, and exhausted by sorrows, cares, and prayers. He can now trust but few people. That is mainly why he is hiding. But he still has with him an aged priest who has much simplicity and godliness. He is his friend and because of his simplicity they did not think it would be worth removing him. But this man receives many graces from God. He sees and notices a great many things which he faithfully reports to the Holy Father. It was required of me to inform him while he was praying, of the traitors and evil doers who were to be found among the high ranking servants living close to him, so that he might be made aware of it.”

~ This holy Father is not Pope Francis, but a future Pope. I will say, by the way, that in my considered pious opinion Pope Francis is a veritable Saint who will one day be canonized. He is much like Pope Saint Celestine V, who was not particularly skillful at administration, but was greatly devoted to God and to truth.

~ I cannot tell which Pope she is describing. It doesn’t sound like the time of the first part of the tribulation. It could well be the last Pope before the Return of Jesus Christ, the Pope who is killed by the supporters of the Antichrist. He is one of few Popes, other than Peter, described in Sacred Scripture (Dan 9:26; Rev 2:13). Notice that there are “traitors and evil doers” among the high ranking servants of the Church. So it is also today. You cannot trust someone’s teaching based on their position in the Church or their reputation, except for the Roman Pontiff. Each and every Pope is protected from teaching grave error and from committing sins against faith, by the prevenient grace of God.

August 25, 1820

“I do not know in what manner I was taken to Rome last night, but I found myself near the Church of St Mary Major, and I saw many poor people who were greatly distressed and worried because the Pope was to be seen nowhere, and also on account of the restlessness and the alarming rumors in the city. These people did not seem to expect the Church doors to open; they only wanted to pray outside. An inner urging had left them there individually. But I was in the Church, and I opened the doors. They came in, surprised and frightened because the doors had opened. It seems to me that I was behind the door, and they could not see me. There was no office on in the Church. But the sanctuary lamps were lit. The people prayed quite peacefully…”

~ This could refer to either or both parts of the tribulation.

“Then I saw an apparition of the Mother of God, and she said that the tribulation would be very great. She added that people must pray fervently with outstretched arms, be it only long enough to say three Our Fathers. This was the way her Son prayed for them on the Cross. They must rise at twelve at night, and pray in this manner; and they must keep coming to the Church. They must pray above all for the Church of Darkness to leave Rome…”

~ The Church of Darkness is never the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is indefectible, so She can never become a Church of Darkness and the Roman Pontiff can never be an antipope or false prophet or antichrist or the like. Instead, a false Church moves to Rome, so as to try to convince people that it is the real Church. This happens in each part of the tribulation. In the first part of the tribulation, a prominent antipope, elected by liberal Bishops and Cardinals, moves to Rome to support his claim to be the true Pope. But at the same time, the true Pope, elected by the faithful Bishops and Cardinals, also moves to Rome (the Muslim extremists having been driven back).

~ In the second part of the tribulation, the false Church is the formal religion for worshipping the Antichrist, as devised by the false prophetess (a former Catholic). She bases the structure of this false religion on Catholicism. But at the same time, the true Church exists, though there will be no pope during the entire reign of the Antichrist.

“She [the Blessed Virgin Mary] said a great many others things that it pains me to relate: she said that if only one priest could offer the bloodless sacrifice as worthily and with the same disposition as the Apostles, he could avert all the disasters. To my knowledge the people in the Church did not see the apparition, but they must have been stirred by something supernatural, because as soon as the Holy Virgin had said that they must pray God with outstretched arms, they all raised their arms. These were all good and devout people, and they did not know where help and guidance should be sought. There were no traitors and enemies among them, yet they were afraid of one another. Once can judge thereby what the situation was like.”

~ This vision may have been figurative. Society reaches such a terrible state, prior to the second part of the tribulation, that even the members of the Church will fear one another. There will be holy persons in every time period, but they are too few. So many Catholic Christians live very sinful lives, this causes much greater suffering. The priests are often not very holy. Certainly, there are some Judas’ in every generation. But another problem is the many priests who are lukewarm in devotion, who have a poor understanding of Church teaching, and who are overly influenced by the least holy of their parishioners and by secular society.

September 10, 1820

“I saw the Church of St Peter: it has been destroyed but for the Sanctuary and the main altar. St Michael came down into the Church, clad in his suit of armor, and he paused, threatening with his sword a number of unworthy pastors who wanted to enter. That part of the Church which had been destroyed was promptly fenced in with light timber so that the Divine office might be celebrated as it should. Then, from all over the world came priests and laymen and they rebuilt the stone walls, since the wreckers had been unable to move the heavy foundation stones. And then I saw that the Church was being promptly rebuilt and She was more magnificent than ever before…”

~ Vatican City will be torn apart by the invading Muslim extremists during World War 3. A little later, when the Allies retake the city of Rome, the extremists will strike Rome and Vatican City with a nuclear missile. After the first part of the tribulation, a new Vatican will be built in Rome, but the center of worship in the Church will be moved to Jerusalem.

~ The situation will be much worse in the distant future, during the second part of the tribulation. The center of authority in Rome will be utterly destroyed. The Catholic Basilica, which will have been the center of worship in the Church since the end of the first part of the tribulation (i.e. for a few hundred years), will be largely abandoned and in a state of near destruction, just as Blessed Anne describes. Only after Jesus Christ returns will it begin to be rebuilt.

September 12, 1820

“I saw a strange church being built against every rule…. No angels were supervising the building operations. In that church, nothing came from high above…. There was only division and chaos. It is probably a church of human creation, following the latest fashion, as well as the new heterodox Church of Rome, which seems of the same kind….”

~ During World War 3, the liberal Catholic schismatics and heretics will elect their own Pope. He will be the most prominent antipope in the history of the world so far. He will be elected outside of Rome, by Cardinals and Bishops who rebelled against the previous Pope (whom I think is Cardinal Arinze as Pope Pius XIII). That is the heterodox church. But at the same time, there will be a true Pope over the true Church. Then, when the Allies recapture Rome, both men will go to Rome, each to lay claim to his right to the Papacy and to be the Bishop of Rome.

~ During the second part of the tribulation, the Antichrist at first tries to be worshipped by the whole world without any formal religion or Church. He demands absolute obedience as well as worship, and he travels around the world destroying all opposition with military force.

~ Then an event happens, which forces a change in his strategy. According to Daniel 11:30, he is assailed by Greek warships (ships from a former bastion of democracy), and the ships are manned by Roman Catholics. They succeed in taking down a number of his ships. He retreats and is humiliated before the whole world. So he can no longer merely force obedience and worship from the world. He takes counsel, and is advised by the false prophetess, a heretical and schismatic Catholic. She proposes that they devise a formal religion for the worship of the Antichrist, patterned after the three most successful world religions: Islam, Judaism, and especially Catholic Christianity. All the places of worship for these three religions had been closed since the start of the Antichrist’s reign. Now they are reopened, but used to worship the Antichrist. The abomination of desolation is a false Eucharist. The worship ceremonies are perversions of Catholic, Jewish, and Muslim rituals. Everyone is forced to participate, or they will not be given the mark of the beast needed to buy and sell and work.

~ So the Antichrist will have his own false Church. At the same time, the true Catholic Church will still exist, with bishops, priests, deacons, and religious as well as many believers. And the two prophets, Enoch and Elijah, will miraculously appear and preach against the Antichrist. So the faithful will never be without the true Church, and they will never be confused, if only they pray and have faith, as to which is the true Church.

“I saw again the strange big church that was being built there [in Rome]. There was nothing holy in it. I saw this just as I saw a movement led by Ecclesiastics to which contributed Angels, Saints and other Christians. But there, all the work was being done mechanically. Everything was being done, according to human reason. I saw all sorts of people, things, doctrines, and opinions. There was something proud, presumptuous, and violent about it, and they seemed to be very successful. I did not see a single Angel nor a single Saint helping in the work. But far away in the background, I saw the seat of a cruel people armed with spears, and I saw a laughing figure which said: ‘Do build it as solid as you can; we will put it to the ground’.”

~ The vision is a figure for the building up of a religion. I think that this refers to the false Church of the liberal schismatics, not so many years from now. And the cruel people are the Muslim extremists. The false Church is said to be built based on reason, that is, the reason of fallen sinners, since that is the main error of liberal schismatics. They think that the teaching of the Church is subject to their own judgment, and when they think another teaching is more reasonable, that is what they believe. They permit “all sorts of … doctrines and opinions”, as they do not adhere to Church teaching with simplicity and trust.

“I saw that many of the instruments in the new Church, such as spears and darts, were meant to be used against the living Church. Everyone dragged in something different: clubs, rods, pumps, cudgels, puppets, mirrors, trumpets, horns, bellows – all sorts of things. In the cave below, some people kneaded bread, but nothing came of it; it would not rise. The men in the little mantles brought wood to the steps of the pulpit to make a fire. They puffed and blew and labored hard, but the fire would not burn. All they produced was smoke and fumes. Then they broke a hole in the roof and ran up a pipe, but the smoke would not rise, and the whole place became black and suffocating. Some blew the horns so violently that the tears streamed from their eyes. All in this church belonged to the earth, returned to the earth. All was dead, the work of human skill, a church of the latest style, a church of man’s invention like the new heterodox church in Rome.”

~ Again this is a figure for a false Church. I want to be very clear that the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, the Roman Catholic Church led by each successor of Peter, is indefectible. At no time in the past, present, or future, does the true Church ever cease to exist, or become evil, and at no time is the true Church ever led by the Antichrist, or by the false prophet (the woman who is the head of the Antichrist’s false Church), or by any evil person or group.

~ This figure for a “new Church” refers to the false Church of the liberal schismatics, during the first part of the tribulation. The false Church of the Antichrist is so much worse that even this terrible figure is not fitting. The figures have meanings, in my opinion, as follows: the spear and darts are false teachings aimed at harming the truths of the true Faith; the instruments of violence are verbal attacks on the faithful; the puppets and mirrors represent tricks used to make the false Church seem valid; the horns represent their desire for notoriety and influence over peoples; the bread that does not rise represents the failure of their teachings; the failure to make fire for the altar means that their false Church is not enlightened by the fire of the Holy Spirit. This false Church fails and falls to the ground, before the end of the first part of the tribulation.

~ I wonder whether, during the inter-tribulation period, some other failed attempts to start a new Christian Church will also occur. It seems likely, given the arrogance of so many believers, and the presence among believers of faithless wolves. But for our lifetime, the false Church in question is such as I have described.

September 27, 1820

“I saw deplorable things: they were gambling, drinking, and talking in church; they were also courting women. All sorts of abominations were perpetrated there. Priests allowed everything and said Mass with much irreverence. I saw that few of them were still godly, and only a few had sound views on things. I also saw Jews standing under the porch of the Church. All these things caused me much distress.”

~ Some liberal Catholics are faithful; some liberal priest and theologians are in a state of grace and truly love God and neighbor. So it is possible for the liberal false Church to have some few good priests, who are nevertheless misguided as they are in the wrong Church. But for the most part, people are attracted to the false Church because it approves of their sins, allows them to gamble, drink to excess, speak profanely, commit sexual sins, etc.

~ This type of error has also afflicted the Jewish Faith. The liberal Jews have formed their own communities, with views that depart from the true teachings of the Old Testament. So the figure of Jews under the porch is a comparison, between the two religions, which have this problem (liberal schismatics) in common.

October 1, 1820

“The Church is in great danger. We must pray so that the Pope may not leave Rome; countless evils would result if he did. They are now demanding something from him. The Protestant doctrine and that of the schismatic Greeks are to spread everywhere. I now see that in this place [Rome] the Church is being so cleverly undermined, that there hardly remain a hundred or so priests who have not been deceived. They all work for destruction, even the clergy. A great devastation is now near at hand.”

~ Even today, there are so many unfaithful teachers in the Church — priests, deacons, religious, theologians, and online commentators — who spread grave error with the claim that it is doctrine or sound theology. They all work for destruction, many without realizing it. The description in the above paragraph fits the Church during the first part of the tribulation. But at that time, the Holy See and the Papacy is driven out of Rome, to return only after the Three Days of Darkness.

~ Then, in the years leading up to the second part of the tribulation, the Catholic Christian faith will be assailed everywhere on earth, even in Rome and in the Holy Land. The Pope of that time can’t leave Rome, or he will be arrested and imprisoned, or outright murdered. But finally, when the Antichrist begins his rise to power, his supporters will kill the last Pope before the Return of Christ. Then there will be no Pope during the nearly seven year reign of the Antichrist.

“In those days Faith will fall very low and it will be preserved in some places only.”

~ After the first part of the tribulation (whose final event is the Three Days of Darkness), the world will experience a vast number of conversions to Catholic Christianity. So many Christians will move to the Holy Land, to be near Jerusalem, that all the nations of the Middle East and northern Africa will become like suburbs of the Holy Land. The Faith will be strongest there, all the way through the inter-tribulation period and the second part of the tribulation, until the Return of Jesus Himself.

“The Little Black Man in Rome, whom I see so often, has many working for him without their clearly knowing for what end. He has his agents in the New Black Church also. If the Pope leaves Rome, the enemies of the Church will get the upper hand. I see the Little Black Man in his own country committing many thefts and falsifying things generally. Religion is there so skillfully undermined and stifled that there are scarcely 100 faithful priests. I cannot say how it is, but I see fog and darkness increasing … All must be rebuilt soon; for everyone, even ecclesiastics, are laboring to destroy (and) ruin is at hand. The 2 enemies of the Church who have lost their accomplice are firmly resolved to destroy the pious and learned men that stand in their way…”

~ I don’t know who that man is; it is not the Antichrist, since the description is not severe enough. The Church passes through many trials, within the inter-tribulation period, especially towards its end, when Ten Kings only rule the whole world. Perhaps it refers to that time period.

October 4, 1820

“When I saw the Church of St Peter in ruins and the manner in which so many of the clergy were themselves busy at this work of destruction – none of them wishing to do it openly in front of the others – I was in such distress that I cried out to Jesus with all my might, imploring His mercy. Then I saw before me the Heavenly Spouse, and He spoke to me for a long time…He said, among other things, that this translation of the Church from one place to another meant that she would seem to be in complete decline. But she would rise again; even if there remained but one Catholic, the Church would conquer again because she does not rest on human counsels and intelligence. It was shown to me that there were almost no Christians left in the old acceptation of the word.”

~ The Church is indefectible. The grace of God keeps the Roman Pontiff always free from teaching grave error, and from the sins of apostasy, heresy, and schism. In addition, God’s grace never fails to bear fruit in souls who are devoted to God, within the clergy, the religious life, and the general laity. But I will tell you something more, something unexpected. In the first part of the tribulation, certain members of the faithful are given the Seal of the Living God; thereafter, they are unable to sin, and they enjoy great gifts from God, the purpose of which is to help the Church during the first part of the tribulation. And for the second part of the tribulation, a similar but greater gift is given to the Church, persons who are conceived with original sin, but who, by the prevenient grace of God, never commit the least personal sins. These pure souls help the Church during the second part of the tribulation.

October 7, 1820

“As I was going through Rome with St. Francis and the other Saint, we saw a great palace engulfed in flames from top to bottom. I was very much afraid that the occupants would be burned to death because no one came forward to put out the fire. As we came nearer, however, the fire abated and we saw the blackened building. We went through a number of magnificent rooms (untouched by the fire), and we finally reached the Pope. He was sitting in the dark and slept in a large arm-chair. He was very ill and weak; he could no longer walk. The ecclesiastics in the inner circle looked insincere and lacking in zeal; I did not like them. I told the Pope of the bishops who are to be appointed soon. I told him also that he must not leave Rome. If he did so, it would be chaos. He thought that the evil was inevitable and that he should leave in order to save many things beside himself. He was very much inclined to leave Rome, and he was insistently urged to do so. The Pope is still attached to the things of this earth in many ways…”

~ The great palace, not entirely consumed by fire, is the Church. She will be greatly oppressed from outside the Church, by government, culture, and unjust laws, as well as from within the Church, by false teachers, incompetent leaders, malicious persons who pretend to be holy, and the like. She cannot be destroyed, but it will seem as if She is about to pass away. The whole palace was engulfed in flames, but many rooms were untouched by the fire. Thus, the Church will seem to be nearly destroyed, but there will be many holy persons left in the world. The grace and providence of God, and miracles when necessary, will protect the Church.

~ The Pope who must not leave Rome is the succession of Popes prior to the Antichrist’s reign. They must all remain in Rome, each one in his turn. For if the Pope moves the Holy See from Rome, the enemies of the Church will use this opportunity to destroy the Holy See. If the Pope moves from Rome, his enemies might use the opportunity to kill him. If the Pope moves from Rome, false leaders might rise up, in Rome, claiming to be the true Pope. If the Pope moves from Rome, it will be much harder for the faithful to understand who is the true Roman Pontiff.

“The Church is completely isolated and as if completely deserted. It seems that everyone is running away. Everywhere I see great misery, hatred, treason, rancor, confusion and utter blindness. O city! O city! What is threatening thee? The storm is coming, do be watchful!…”

~ The Church will be in such a dire state, just prior to the Antichrist’s reign, due to the extreme sinfulness of the world, and the sinfulness of so many persons in the Church. Few holy priests will be left, to offer the sacrifice of the Mass without blemish. Too few persons in the world devote themselves to prayer. Grave sins are found among most Catholic Christians, and they do not admit that these are sins at all. False teachers will prey upon the weak in faith, and the weak in intellect, to inculcate them with grave errors.

June 1, 1821

“Among the strangest things that I saw, were long processions of bishops. Their thoughts and utterances were made known to me through images issuing from their mouths. Their faults towards religion were shown by external deformities. A few had only a body, with a dark cloud of fog instead of a head. Others had only a head, their bodies and hearts were like thick vapors. Some were lame; others were paralytics; others were asleep or staggering. I saw what I believe to be nearly all the bishops of the world, but only a small number were perfectly sound. I also saw the Holy Father – God-fearing and prayerful. Nothing left to be desired in his appearance, but he was weakened by old age and by much suffering. His head was lolling from side to side, and it dropped onto his chest as if he was falling asleep He often fainted and seemed to be dying. But when he was praying, he was often comforted by apparitions from Heaven. Then, his head was erect, but as soon as it dropped again onto his chest, I saw a number of people looking quickly right and left, that is, in the direction of the world…”

~ Even today, many Bishops are weak in faith, or confused in their understanding. Many Bishops commit one grave error after another in the way they run their diocese. For they pray little, and without fervor. Their love has grown cold. Their faith is feeble. It is that way today, and it will be much worse as the second part of the tribulation approaches.

“Then I saw that everything pertaining to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence. Most priests were lured by the glittering but false knowledge of young school-teachers, and they all contributed to the work of destruction. In those days, Faith will fall very low, and it will be preserved in some places only, in a few cottages and in a few families which God has protected from disasters and wars…”

~ I have often thought that the vocation of theologian is disreputable, because the majority of theologians do more harm than good. Most seem to have no faith at all, or else a weak faith. More than a few are weak in intellect, despite having advanced degrees. Some are clearly not called to the profession they have chosen. Some think themselves to be highly-competent when they are thoroughly incompetent. Much harm is done by unfaithful and incompetent teachers of religion: priests, deacons, religious, and lay theologians and authors. Those in authority in the Church seldom do anything about this problem.


“I also saw the various regions of the earth. My Guide named Europe and pointing to a small and sandy region, He uttered these words: ‘Here is Prussia, the enemy.’ Then He showed me another place, to the north, and He said: ‘This is Moskva, the land of Moscow, bringing many evils’.”

~ During the inter-tribulation period, one kingdom after another rises up, to dominate the world — but without obtaining control over most or all nations. The first is the holy kingdom of the great monarch, in the 21st century. But after some time, that kingdom is divided, and thereby loses power. The second kingdom to rise to power is Russia, which conquers many nations and causes much harm. The third terrible kingdom is comprised of four main areas: China, India, Africa (except for the north), and one other area. The fourth is the kingdom of the ten kings, which rules the whole world. All the nations of the world will be part of one or another of the ten. And each kingdom will be ruled by one leader only.

“I see many excommunicated ecclesiastics who do not seem to be concerned about it, nor even aware of it. Yet, they are excommunicated whenever they incorporated to enterprises, enter into associations, or embrace opinions on which an anathema has been cast. It can be seen thereby that God ratifies the decrees, orders, and interdictions issued by the Head of the Church, and that He keeps them in force even though men show no concern for them, reject them, or laugh them to scorn.”

~ So it is today. There are many prominent Catholic teachers who are automatically excommunicated for publicly teaching, and therefore personally adhering to, heresy. And the number who have publicly committed formal schism is much larger. They continue to have teaching positions in Catholic universities and colleges. They continue to be hired by Catholic organizations. They laugh at the idea that they are automatically excommunicated for heresy or schism. And plenty of Catholic follow them and support them, despite abject heresy. They are greatly praised for their faithfulness, despite being automatically excommunicated for heresy and/or schism.

April 22, 1823

“I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church. Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics sects of every description. Such was to be the new Church…But God had other designs…”

~ This describes the errors on the left in Catholicism. They have so eroded or abandoned the teachings of the Church, that there is nothing much left to distinguish us from Protestants of any kind. Sometimes these ideas seem attractive as they are new and exciting, or as they make the faith much easier to live. But they are grave errors nonetheless.

~ Eventually, the non-Catholic Christians will unite in the one Catholic Church. This is the will of God, as Jesus himself prays: “So may they all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me, and I am in you, so also may they be one in us: so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21).

“I see that when the Second Coming of Christ approaches, a bad priest will do much harm to the Church. When the time of the reign of Antichrist is near, a false religion will appear which will be opposed to the unity of God and His Church. This will cause the greatest schism the world has ever known. The nearer the time of the end, the more the darkness of Satan will spread on earth, the greater will be the number of the children of corruption, and the number of the just will correspondingly diminish…”

~ That event is prior to the arrival of the Antichrist, during the reign of the ten kings. Society will have fallen into great wickedness, and many bad persons will have power and influence in the Church. It is not at all surprising that a bad priest could rise to much influence and harm many souls. It is not surprising that a schism would occur which would drag a vast number of Catholics away from the Church. But I don’t believe she is referring to the schism during the first part of the tribulation. I think there will be another schism, much worse, as the second part of the tribulation approaches. But since the first part of the tribulation is a reflection of the second part of the tribulation, they are similar in many ways.

“They built a large, singular, extravagant church which was to embrace all creeds with equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, and all denominations, a true communion of the unholy with one shepherd and one flock. There was to be a Pope, a salaried Pope, without possessions. All was made ready, many things finished; but, in place of an altar, were only abomination and desolation. Such was the new church to be, and it was for it that he had set fire to the old one; but God designed otherwise….”

~ This probably occurs in the first part of the tribulation, referring to the schismatic Church of the liberals, led by an antipope. But it may well occur, to a greater extent, during the reign of the ten kings. For then government will so restrict the true Church, that She will not be able to take action against schismatics and heretics.

“I came to the Church of Peter and Paul (Rome) and saw a dark world of distress, confusion, and corruption, through which shone countless graces from thousands of saints who there repose…”

~ The true Church will always be a light and a source of grace to the whole world, even during the darkest times. At no time is the Church ever led by an antipope, or a false prophet, or the Antichrist, or someone associated with the Antichrist, or someone who is led by Satan, or someone who is a freemason or the like. The Church is indefectible, and so is Her head, the Roman Pontiff.

“I saw the fatal consequences of this counterfeit church: I saw it increase; I saw heretics of all kinds flocking to the city. I saw the ever-increasing tepidity of the clergy, the circle of darkness ever widening…”

~ This happens in both parts of the tribulation. In the near future, the Catholics who depart from the true Church, under the conservative Pope after Pope Francis, decide to set up their own Church, with their own antipope; that counterfeit Church teaches many grave errors, approves of many sinful acts, especially sexual sins, and often has a Eucharist which is invalid (and so remains just bread and wine).

“Again I saw in the midst of these disasters the twelve new Apostles laboring in different countries, unknown to one another, each receiving streams of living water from on high. They all did the same work. They know not whence they received their tasks; but as soon as one was finished, another was ready for them…”

~ God always provides for the Church, with providence, grace, and miracles.

“The Jews shall return to Palestine, and become Christians toward the end of the world.”

~ At the end of the first part of the tribulation, very many persons convert to Catholic Christianity. There will be no other Christians but Catholic Christians; all the Protestants and Orthodox will have been united to the true Church (which will make great concessions to bring them back to the fold). Many Jews and Muslims will convert. There will be no other religions but Catholic Christianity, then Judaism as a distant second, and then Islam as a distant third.

~ During the inter-tribulation period, this situation will reverse. Islam will grow in numbers, to become the most populous monotheistic religion, with Judaism as a distant second, and Christianity as a distant third. But after the Antichrist falls from power (literally and figuratively), very many persons again convert to Christianity. Then Christ returns very very soon afterward.

October 22, 1822

“Very bad times will come when non-Catholics will lead many people astray. A great confusion will result. I saw the battle also. The enemies were far more numerous, but the small army of the faithful cut down whole rows of enemy soldiers. During the battle, the Blessed Virgin stood on a hill, wearing a suit armor. It was a terrible war. At the end, only a few fighters for the just cause survived, but the victory was theirs…”

~ This war seems to be figurative, so it is not the violence of Catholics against non-Catholic Christians or non-Catholic believers. The Church fights against many grave errors in every time period.

~ During the first part of the tribulation, the Muslim extremists go to war, in World War 3, and conquer the Christian nations of Europe. Then, in World War 4, the free nations, led by the great Catholic monarch, defeat the extremists, conquering them even in their own lands.

The End

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5 Responses to My Interpretation of Blessed Emmerich’s Two Popes Prophecy

  1. Tom Mazanec says:

    When was the theory that the two tribulations would be separated by several centuries instead of occurring one after the other (which is what I usually hear) first promulgated?

  2. Mark P. says:

    Past descriptions of Papal conclaves seem to suggest that they are political in nature, with “conservative” cardinals lobbying for a “conservative” Pope and “liberal” cardinals for one of their own. So it does not seem certain that the current college of cardinals would vote for a “conservative” Pope, especially considering that Pope Francis will most likely install new cardinals along the way. Of course, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, anything is possible. I agree that the next Pope will quite likely be a non-Caucasian, however, and it does seem that, especially if the next Pope is from Africa, they tend to lean more conservative.

  3. Sunimal Fernando says:

    Did Jesus told about 2 tribulations ? In Revelation or Daniel or some other in the bible supports this 2 tribulation periods ? I think , NO is the answer. What says in St. Malachi prophecy ?

    • Ron Conte says:

      Matthew 25:1-12 is the first part of the tribulation. Then verses 13 and 14 indicate the time of peace and holiness afterward, when the Gospel is preached with great success. Then the rest of the verses indicate the second part of the tribulation. The same type of two-fold tribulation is found in the secrets of La Salette. The book of Daniel also has prophecies from both parts of the tribulation. The St. Malachi prophecy groups all of the Popes of both parts of the tribulation under the heading of “Peter the Roman”

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